#DisclosuresTribunal Conor O'Donnell, editor of the Irish Mail on Sunday, is now giving evidence. Tribunal has heard RTE's Paul Reynolds won't be giving evidence today - as scheduled.
#DisclosuresTribunal O'D going through his career - includes working in The Kerryman, Irish Examiner, Daly Telegraph in London, IMOS.
#DisclosuresTribunal O'D says Debbie McCann has been the crime correspondent at IMOS since he started there 5 years ago.
#DisclosuresTribunal O'D says he's never been neg briefed by Martin Callinan, Noirin O'Sullivan and Dave Taylor and knows of nobody in Mail being neg briefed by Call/NOS/Taylor either.
#DisclosuresTribunal Robert Cox came to my office in early 2014, to tell me that McCAnn had some info on McCabe - an allegation of a sexual mature involving a young girl. McCann wanted to know if she could go and interview the woman.
#DisclosuresTribunal [cntd] O'D says Debbie was turned away by the mother, McCann then went to a petrol station, called Cox to say mother wasn't interested and she came back to Dublin. O'D says McCann went on mat leave shortly after. O'D can't put a date on when this happen
#DisclosuresTribunal O'D explains that, in the IMOS, the reporters report to the news editor (Cox) and then Cox reports to O'D.
#DisclosuresTribunal O'D explains Cox brings story ideas to O'D and O'D decides what he is/isn't interested in. O'D says he's not aware Ms D allegation was discussed at the reporters' conference with Cox
#DisclosuresTribunal McGuinness, for tribunal, puts to O'D he never spoke to McCann about the story. O'D: Correct. McG: So it was Cox who spoke to McCann. O'D: Correct. OD: She furnished him (Cox) with info that she knew of an allegation..that stage we'd never write anything down
#DisclosuresTribunal Asked about what info was presented to him, O'Donnell explains that Sgt McCabe was identified but Ms D's identity wasn't. Asked if it was know Ms D's father was a guard, O'Donnell: I cannot recall that, I'm not sure if that information was provided at time
#DisclosuresTribunal O'D tells tribunal his chat with Cox was brief. All Cox wanted from O'D at that stage was the OK to go ahead.
#DisclosuresTribunal O'D said being a Sunday paper, the IMOS deals with a lot of w/blowers/investigations. He says an allegatoin was brought to his attention, he thought it was worth pursuing. O'D says you don't know what is the situation until you send someone out.
#DisclosuresTribunal [Cntd] O'D says nothing came of it (McCann's visit) and we did nothing more about it and it was never discussed again. O'D says it's duty of newspapers to check allegations out.
#DisclosuresTribunal McGuinness: In this case, was it relayed to you where Ms D lived? OD: No...I had a general idea. I was told it was Cavan. O'D adds he knew McCann knew the woman's address and he presumed she knew the girl's family name.
#DisclosuresTribunal O'D tells tribunal that he believes Cox indicated to him that the DPP determined that there was no case to answer. Asked why then this was something IMOS checked out, O'D: Sometimes victims of a crime, if DPP determines no case to answer, feel aggrieved...
#DisclosuresTribunal [cntd] OD: I wouldn't have know it then what we could have got [from interviewing Ms D], we could have got an interview and we could have just gleaned information re: motivation of McCabe.
#DisclosuresTribunal O'D repeats that in sending McCann up to Ms D's house,
"there's a apotential that you might learn more about the controversy regarding McCabe. She [Ms D] may have agreed to an interiew, she may have waived anonymity..."
"there's a apotential that you might learn more about the controversy regarding McCabe. She [Ms D] may have agreed to an interiew, she may have waived anonymity..."
#DisclosuresTribunal [cntd] O'D: "...these are all the things we could consider at a later stage.." OD says first priority was to send someone to see what would happen. O'D: "It wouldn't be uncommon from IMOS to send people somewhere without guarantee of getting a story"
#DisclosuresTribunal O'D says if something did come of the visit to Ms D's house, IMOS would have contacted McCabe...O'D says it would have been a long-term project. O'D confirms it wasn't pitched as an 'exclusive' to him.
#DisclosuresTirbunal O'D says he didn't discuss this with Sebastian Hamilton (Mail group editor)
#DisclosuresTribunal McGuinness tells tribunal McCann originally told tribunal she thought call to Ms D house was on Feb 14 or 21 (2014) but now thinks it might be later - in light of a story she did on a person in Longford on Feb 27.
#DisclosuresTribunal Asked if he knows when visit occurred, O'D says he doesn't know unfortunately but he thinks it was late Feb/early March 2014.
#DisclosuresTirbunal McGuinness asked about Paul Williams articles. O'D said he didn't see them at the time. Asked if he would have been upset at the time that PW got the story, OD said no, IMOS had made an effort, Ds didn't want to speak and that was it.
#DisclosuresTribunal O'D tells tribunal he's never asked McCann about her source/s. He says IMOS reporters do have business cards.
#DisclosuresTribunal O'D says he did hear murmurings about McCabe before Cox came to him and told him McCann had heard allegation. O'D says he doesn't hang out with politicians/journalists and doesn't pursue stories himself. Says "that's not style of editorship that I adhere to"
#DisclosuresTribunal Michael McDowell SC, for McCabe, asks why O'D wouldn't, as editor and bearing in legal implications, ask McCann as to why she believed she knew the identity of the person and on what basis she was going to doorstep this person.
#DisclosuresTribunal O'D says he didn't commit to much at that point - he merely gave McCann the OK to call to the house. MDowell: You had no idea whether this allegation was true/false. You're sending someone to ask if they're the victim of an assault? O'D Correct.
#DisclosuresTribunal McD: Would you/Cox not inquire 'why do you think this woman was assaulted'? and on 'what basis should be doorstepped?'. OD: I was satisfied she [McCann] was comfortable with the info she had.
#DisclosuresTribunal McD says he has confidence in McCann, as a senior reporter, to go to the house and deal with the matter sensitively. McD: You had no idea of the offence that was supposed to have been committed. OD: Correct. McD: Could have been trivial. OD: Yes.
#DisclosuresTribunal McD: Why didn't you inquire of the reporter who was going to intrude into a woman's privacy as to the reliability and the substance of the information on which she was going to act in this way? OD: Because I had confidence McCann's source was good/strong
#DisclosuresTribunal OD: All I had was what Cox told me Debbie told him. McD: What did he tell you re: nature of info and source? OD: That a young girl had made an accusation against McCabe number of years ago, it had been investigated by DPP and there was no a case to answer.
#DisclosuresTribunal OD: I felt that the allegation was worth exploring. OD tells McDowell: I don't know who her source was. McD: Did you assume (it was a guard?) OD: I don't recall what I assumed, I'm not sure I assumed anything.
#DisclosuresTribunal O'Donnell concedes to McDowell that it's likely McCann's source was a guard.
#DisclosuresTribunal [Note, previous tweet: OD said: "As a crime correspondent, I would accept the most likely source was the gardai" ]
#DisclosuresTribunal Counsel for Alison O'Reilly (for the Irish Daily Mail) is now asking O'Donnell questions.
#DisclosuresTribunal AOR counsel puts to OD that if IMOS had got a story on Ms D, it would have been explosive. AOR counsel suggests the headline: "Garda whistleblower is a paedophile". O'D says he doesn't know what the story would have been because they never got or did a story.
#DisclosuresTribunal OD repeats that, while it's a bit crude, McCann's visit to Ms D house was like a scoping exercise..OD said even if Ms D did speak to them, the IMOS may not have got a story over the line.
#DisclosuresTribunal OD says if a girl/family are not willing to engage, that's the end of the story. OD: "We left it there and never discussed it again." AOR counsel: Even as the McCabe story got bigger and bigger and bigger? OD: No, sincerely, absolutely not.
#DisclosuresTribunal AOR counsel recalls texts McCann sent to AOR during her maternity leave (which the tribunal has seen) in which McCann called the praise of McCabe as "gross", described Ms D as a "seriously messed up woman" and used the word "disgusting".
#DisclosuresTribunal O'Donnell points out these were sent during her maternity leave and these positions were never relayed to him.
#DisclosuresTribunal AOR counsel says the evidence of AOR is that McCann told her in clear/graphic terms of a) conversation between McCann and Ms D and b) the state Ms D was in. [McCann and Ms D have told tribunal they never met] AOR counsel: Any awareness of that? OD: No
#DisclosuresTribunal Conor Dignam, for AGS, now asking OD questions. Dignam raising the point OD made earlier that he thought it was likely McCann's source was gardai. OD clarifies to Dignam that he meant a source within AGS (as opposed to AGS corporately)
#DisclosuresTribunal Dignam now asking O'Donnell about the checks and balances of creating a story in IMOS.
#DisclosuresTribunal O'D gives lengthy explanation, ultimately says everything has to be stress tested, reporters have to get documents, get facts. O'D also says anyone who's been accused of something is entitled to have that allegation put to them.
#DisclosuresTribunal O'D recounts incident whereby IMOS spoke to someone in France - against whom allegations were made - and when they put the allegations to that person, the person invited the journalist into coffee shop and they chatted for 2 hours, which changed IMOS's story
#DisclosuresTribunal Michael Keeley, for O'Donnell, tells tribunal, he has no questions for O'Donnell.
#DisclosuresTribunal Charleton talking with OD about journalistic privilege. They agree identifying one source can lead to identity of others - jigsaw identification. Judge asks in case where there is just a single source and identifying them wouldn't lead to other sources...
#DisclosuresTribunal [cntd]...being identified or journalistic methods being identified (and where the source is saying 'please come forward otherwise I will be branded a liar')..Charleton asks if, in that scenario, would it change things. O'D says it's a matter for individuals
#DIsclosuresTribunal O'Donnell says he doesn't think there can be exceptions when it comes to source protection. Charleton asks about Woodward and Bernstein (Charleton previously raised W&B) and asks O'Donnell if they were wrong - to identify Mark Felt as Deep Throat.
#DisclosuresTribunal O'D says it's matter for themselves (W&B). O'D says never in his lifetime will he achieve what W&B have done in terms of contribution to democracy and the journalistic cannon. OD again says he was never neg briefed by Taylor/Call/NOS, so priv doesn't apply
#DisclosuresTribunal Sebastian Hamilton, group editor at Mail, now answering questions. Hamilton being asked about crossover between daily and Sunday papers. Kathleen Leader BL, for tribunal, is taking SH through his evidence.
#DIsclosuresTribunal Leader asks SH if he's ever met NOS. SH answers by saying he's made it repeatedly clear to tribunal he was never briefed about McCabe and says 'beyond that, I'm not willing to discuss who I know, who I don't know, who I've met or have spoken to...'
#DisclosuresTribunal SH continues: I don't think I should ever have to discuss who I meet, who I talk to, because I don't see how it would assist the tribunal... I do believe it's not appropriate to ask any journalists those questions.
#DisclosuresTribunal SH refers to Charleton's Woodward and Bernstein example and mentions his extended family background in journalism.
#DisclosuresTribunal SH is categorical that he never heard of any allegations against Sgt McCabe until allegations of a smear campaign were published. SH:
Until allegations of a smear campaign were published, I hadn't heard anything negative about Sgt McCabe personally.
Until allegations of a smear campaign were published, I hadn't heard anything negative about Sgt McCabe personally.
#DisclosuresTribunal Tribunal has previously heard it's the evidence of Alison O'Reilly that Debbie McCann told her that Sebastian Hamilton didn't want to run a story she wrote about Ms D. She said SH was "too cautious about the scandal and didn't want to run it".
#DisclosuresTribunal SH: Not only did it not happen, it couldn't have happend, editorial processes in Mail don't work like that...there was never even an article prepared for submission that I could have put a stop to. Logically..it couldn't have happened and it didn't happen
#DisclosuresTribunal Leader asks SH - given his 25 years in journalism and being a third generation journalist as he said - if, in his experience, journalists talking up importance of stories or sources...SH repeats AOR's allegation is 'non sensical' as no story was ever written
#DisclosuresTribunal Leader repeats the question. SH says it's his experience that journalists don't really talk to each other about their stories and they're very protective of their sources - rather than talk them up.
#DisclosuresTribunal SH says he and McCann were previously subjects of an investigation launched by Martin Callinan in relation to a story and McCann never told SH anything about her source/s. Leader repeats the question.
#DisclosuresTribunal SH says he wouldn't be aware of any scenario as suggested by Leader.
#DisclosuresTribunal Fionan O Muircheartaigh BL, for AOR, is now asking questions of Sebastian Hamilton. SH tells O'M the IMOS has published large number of explosive, brilliant stories over years and on no occasion has there ever been a sense that a story needs to be run by him
#DisclosuresTribunal O'M suggests there's a sense of "bunker-isation". He says at this time (early 2014) Mail's journalists AOR and McCann were sniffing around this story in the ether. O'M: Is it culture in paper that what is guaranteed to be top news headline isn't told to you?
#DisclosuresTribunal SH says there's no requirement to come to him. Repeats there was no story by IMOS/McCann. SH: We want IDM/IMOS papers to have their own voices, they make their own decisions and speak with their own voices to their own audiences in their own particular way.
#DisclosuresTribunal O'M asks SH if it's the case that nobody told him of the "incendiary" potential story (Ms D) until March 2014. SH corrects O'M and says "I think it was a long time later before I heard anything."
#DisclosuresTribunal SH repeats: Anyone who works with me, knows I'm interested in evidence/facts. SH draws tribunal's attention to fact he's not Irish and he doesn't have the kind of connections other (Irish) journalists have. SH says he wouldn't be gossiping in that fashion.
#DisclosuresTribunal O'M points out SH wrote a two-page article in Irish Daily Mail on Sat Feb 11, 2017 - six days before tribunal set up - calling for inquiry to be held in public and for evidence to be out in public. Otherwise, SH said, it might lead to further damage of AGS
#DisclosuresTribunal O'M: You called for a public investigation, now we have it, tribunal is trying to untangle what happened, it's trying to get clarity, it's not just about Sgt McCabe, it's about the law enforcement mechanisms and how it may have been managed.
#DisclosuresTribunal O'M draws up SH statement to tribunal in which he spoke of privilege but said "I can confirm that none of the open communications that the journalists in question had with Det Supt Taylor relate to terms of reference of the tribunal"
#DisclosuresTribunal O'M refers to the claim that Alison O'Reilly has made to the tribunal (in respect of what AOR claims McCann told her), SH says: "That is an allegation which is contested."
#DisclosuresTribunal After lengthy submission by SH, judge steps in to sum up that O'M is suggesting that SH is "hypocrite". SH: "If that is the point, then I absolutely don't accept that." SH speaks again about the importance of protecting sources.
#DisclosuresTribunal SH says he doesn't believe that this position on protecting sources isn't in conflict with supporting the work of the tribunal. SH: I don't accept the assertion that I or the company is somehow refusing to assist the tribunal
#DisclosuresTribunal O'M speaks again about Supt Dave Taylor's waiver and says journalists have "legal and civic duty" to come forward. SH repeats that he can't/won't breach his principles. SH speaks again about duty of journalists to protect sources.
#DisclosuresTribunal Charleton has put to SH that there are two journalists in Mail which he refers to as A (Alison O'Reilly) and B (Debbie McCann) and that A says one thing, B says another.
#DisclosuresTribunal Charleton says after tribunal wrote to Mail seeking help, SH chose to write a legal letter "rubbishing" AOR and supporting McCann. Judge says SH is effectively saying AOR is lying. SH has explained the reasoning for this extensively.
#DisclosuresTribunal [Apologies for delay....] OM, for Alison O'Reilly, put it to SH that AOR - by her coming forward - she was protecting an innocent man, that stories being told about him were false and her jour antennae were up that this allegation was too convenient
#DisclosuresTribunal OM: AOR was trying to protect her colleague and protect the paper. Her actions were motivated by her public and legal duty to respond to tribunal. SH: You would say that. Judge: Seriously, Mr Hamilton. The point being put to you is: You've taken sides, why?
#DisclosuresTribunal SH: I don't belive that's a fair characterisation of this. I'm not in a position to understand what is in AOR's mind. What I can say as a fact is that firstly, as we know, no article was ever prepared, far less published about Sgt McCabe or critical of him...
#DisclosuresTribunal SH: And in fact the papers (IDM and IMOS) were extremely supportive of whistleblowers and critical of Garda management. You're taking about her protecting an innocent man and protecting the paper, until that point there had been nothing to protect papers from
#DisclosuresTribunal SH says prior to all of the Ms D stuff, AOR felt happy to go to SH about pervious difficulties she was having at Mail. SH: Why, if she was so concerned, during 2014, with this, did she not similarly come to me and raise her concerns or to anyone else...
#DisclosuresTribunal [cntd]... in the company when, at very least, she had demonstrated I was someone she could talk to about work issues. SH: AOR's evidence is strongly contested by McCann. It doesn't make logical sense to me that McCann would say what she's alleged to have said
#DisclosuresTribunal SH: There's no supporting evidence for the claims that McCann is alleged to have said and we know that AOR says that McCann described an interiew with MS D which everyone accepts did not take place
#DisclosuresTribunal SH adds that AOR "clearly has a greivance with the IMOS". Says, to date, she's brought 3 legal cases against the Mail.
#DisclosuresTribunal SH: I think it is reasonable for the company to say we believe that her [AOR] evidence is not true and we believe that it may be motivated by the fact, and it's a demonstrable fact, that she has a substantial grievance against the company which is unresolved
#DisclosuresTribunal It's after this that Judge puts to SH: There's A and there's B. A says one thing and B says the other...You choose to write a legal letter to the tribunal rubbishing A and supporting B...effectively your're saying she's [AOR] lying..Why?
#DisclosuresTribunal Judge to SH: Why not get everything/everyone together and say if there's anything to say - go to the tribunal
#DisclosuresTribunal SH says he doesn't have direct evidence to truth or otherwise of the allegations but says he does feel everybody should understand the potential motivations of those involved. All the people who do have direct evidence say they are not true
#DisclosuresTribunal SH repeats that AOR has a grievance but then adds he doesn't have direct evidence or the veracity or otherwise of the allegations.
#DisclosuresTribunal OM asks SH if the journalists whom the tribunal has written to in respect of Taylor (including Jennifer Bray, now of Times Ireland and Ali Bracken) - if they are going to tell the tribunal what Taylor told them.
#DisclosuresTribunal SH basically says it's up to them - he wouldn't impose his absolutist view of privilege on anyone. He confirms to judge they journalists are not under his thumb.
#DisclosuresTribunal Leader, for tribunal, brought SH thru chronology of corr between Mail and tribunal. Some of the letters included the statements/letters to tribunal from Brendan Howlin and AOR. Leader asked SH if these were discussed in Mail. SH can't recall specifically.
#DisclosuresTribunal Leader puts to SH that the tribunal got info from Howlin, the D family - who said McCann called to house - and then the tribunal asked McCann about this and she told the tribunal about it.
#DisclosuresTribunal Leader asks if this chronology is consistent with cooperating with the tribunal. Asks if Mail was saying nothing and leaving it up to the tribunal to find out info another way and then dealing with it
#DisclosuresTribunal SH says his slight difficulty is that he wasn't involved or aware of approach to Ms D in early 2014. Says he can't recall the conversations he would have been involved in in the Mail
#DisclosuresTribunal SH adds: Certainly from the beginning there was a concern, and it was a concern I felt keenly, we must protect our sources and we must protect our right to protect our sources
#DisclosuresTribunal SH: and wheher I would have known a) details of visit to Ms D or b) to decide if it did fall within terms of reference or whether it was covered by privilege, I'll be honest and said I don't remember having that level of discussion about those things
#DisclosuresTribunal SH: I know Michael Kealey (Mail solicitor) had individual discussions with indivs as well which I wouldn't have been party to...I think at all times we were very conscious of defending the principle of privilege and that was my ultimate consideration
#DisclosuresTribunal Leader: At end of day McCann told us at end of July last year that she had been to Ms D's house and hadn't had an interiew with Ms D - but she was comfortale telling us that while claiming privielage. That is in July of last year.
#DisclosuresTribunal L: What I'm wondering: was there a decision made at any time with regard to tribunal - 'ok, we're going to claim privilege, we're not going to tell trib anything about our jouranlist/s knowing anything about McCabe story until we see what info tribunal gets'
#DisclosuresTribunal SH: I'm not aware of that position being taken at all...as I've said I don't put my absolutest view of privilege on anybody working in Mail
#DisclosuresTribunal Leader: AOR was only person to give trib info - and she seems to have been left out in the cold. SH: I wouldn't take that characterisation because that's based on assumption what AOR is saying is true and her motivation not influenced by grievance with IMOS
#DisclosuresTribunal Judge steps in to say that anyone can have a grievance and still tell the truth. He says there's plenty of people he doesn't like but he still tries to do the right thing. Judge says it's a big jump to assume what SH is assuming.
#DisclosuresTribunal Judge continues on his "big jump" line and says that for Mail to write this down and say she's lying, it's a very big jump. Judge tells SH: I'm not sure you realise this.
#DisclosuresTribunal Judge says this is not about AOR, it's about what the newspaper knew, while he (judge) is left sitting on his hands in the castle. Judge suggests (like Ms Leader) that the Mail may have decided to wait and see what other info the tribunal got.
#DisclosuresTribunal Judge is emphatic that this is not an accusation but say the tribunal has seen it elsewhere so "Why not here?"
#DisclosuresTribunal SH: If there was any perception of a failure to give information, from my perspective, the only possible answer could be: the belief that journalistic privilege and freedom to protect our sources was potentially at risk
#DisclosuresTribunal Judge puts to SH the following are facts: McCann knocked on Ms D door, she spoke to Mrs D, the newspaper knew all this. Judge: You chose not to tell us - takes you five months (to tell tribunal)
#DisclosuresTribunal [cntd] Judge: It's all very well to say journalistic privilege any number of times you wish but at the moment that doesn't look very impressive to me.
#DisclosuresTribunal Leader puts to SH that the core fact is McCann went to the house of Ms D. SH says he thinks the core fact is the claim by AOR that McCann told her NOS personally briefed McCann about McCabe - which he said was explosive and turned inquiry into a tribunal
#DisclosuresTribunal Leader repeats that the McCann, the Mail or any other Mail journalist - bar Alison O'Reilly - shared knowledge of McCann's visit to Ms D house until the tribunal found it out another way
#DisclosuresTribunal Conor Lally, security and crime editor at Irish Times, now giving evidence. Tribunal has heard he's claiming privilege and declining to confirm to the tribunal his phone number.
#DisclosuresTribunal In statement to tribunal Lally said he was "extremely surprised" to be included in list of journalists Supt Taylor claims to have neg briefed about McCabe. He also says no garda, past or present, has ever briefed him negatively about Sgt McCabe
#DisclosuresTribunal Lally also says in statement: I am in a position to confirm that no member of AGS past or present ever spoke to me about allegations of criminal misconduct (whether sex abuse or anything of the like) about Sgt McCabe
#DisclosuresTribunal Lally also says: I'm not in a position to comment in any way upon disucssions I may or may not have had with Supt Taylor, or anyone else where I am precluded from doing so by virtue of my obligations to observe journalistic privilege
#DisclosuresTribunal Lally tells tribunal he respects the tribunal's work seriously but he also takes his work seriously.
#DisclosuresTribunal [NOTE: Supt Taylor has claimed that the only comeback he got from any journalist when briefing journalists about McCabe was when Lally didn't believe him (Taylor) when he said McCabe didn't cooperate with John O'Mahony investigation into penalty points]
#DisclosuresTribunal Lally says that he believes he heard about a historical complaint against McCabe in either 2010 or 2011. Can't remember by whom. He says he was told complaint was made, it was investigated and DPP said it was "completely thrown out by the DPP"
#DisclosuresTribunal Lally says he heard it in the sense that McCabe had fallen out with Garda management and this was the reason why.
#DisclosuresTribunal [NOTE: Lally wrote an article on Ms D on Feb 20 2017, headlined: 'When can I get on with my life?' - woman at centre of McCabe case' in The Irish Times. Lally says idea for story came up in newsroom and done independently of anybody in AGS]
#DisclosuresTribunal Lally says allegation against McCabe resurfaced (he thinks but can't be certain) in 2013/2014 and was "doing the rounds in journalistic circles".
#DisclosuresTribunal Lally says, of the info he had: It had a start, middle and end... You couldn't do anything with the information...he'd [McCabe] been exonerated [by DPP]..there wasn't a huge amount to be done. Lally says no other journalist asked him about the allegation
#DisclosuresTribunal Lally says the issue did resurface in 2013/2014. He said he got impression other journalists knew what he knew then. Asked who? He can't recall. Asked if he could recall, would he ID them? Lally repeats he can't specifically recall who they are.
#DisclosuresTribunal Lally: "It was a dead piece of information from the off"
#DisclosuresTribunal Lally said he felt the other journalists also knew there was no substance to the allegation
#DisclosuresTribunal Asked if he spoke to Supt Dave Taylor at the time at all..Lally said he would find it hard to answer that without getting into sources
#DisclosuresTribunal Lally goes on to say while it might sound bizarre he doesnt believe he ever had a discussion with Taylor about McCabe
#DisclosuresTribunal Lally struggled to put a date on when he found out Ms D's identity (between 2010/2011 and 2017 when he interviewed Ms D). Then told the tribunal that he thinks it was after it was decided he would interview her in 2017. He went off and found out her details
#DisclosuresTribunal Lally says it was very easy to find out who Ms D was but is categorically saying he this info didnt come by way of a guard.
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